Tuesday, September 26, 2006
54 For D-Or. Fight!
For Papi's right! To be MVP!
Papi added to those MVP stats tonight. League leader in homers, by a lot. League leader in total bases. League leader in RBI. League leader in walks. All despite missing ten games. 2nd in slugging. 3rd in OPS. The guy with these numbers wins the MVP every time. Ish. Wade Boggs never won an MVP despite having a really, really, high average.
Ortiz may be behind ______ in average by 50 points, but his OBP is within 7 points of him right now. And it's not like you can say Ortiz isn't valuable. This is the clutchingest clutchinator ever we're talking about.
The more I think about this thing with ______'s fake, media-invented MVP candidacy, the more angry I get. For Tim McCarver to have the nerve to act like it mattered that the fans of Yankee Stadium chant "MVP" loudly when ______ came up should be a fire-able offense. Michael Fucking Kay decided one day that he was going to make ______ the MVP. Say it enough, oh, and be in New York, and people will just assume it must be true. After Papi got jobbed last year, and they saw they had no chance this year, they just started saying _______'s name over and over again. Surely no one would argue that ______ isn't MVP-worthy, on principle alone. That would be like singing the Russian national anthem before games.
And now people take it seriously. What am I looking at here? The average alone? Where else does he top Ortiz? Where, in some of those categories that Ortiz beat A-Rod in hands-down but still missed out on the award?
I trust the voters in this case. I don't think they'll go completely against what they've always done. Maybe they'll go Dye, Hafner, I don't know. But there is no way it should go to _______. And they should also remember that _______ isn't that great a fielder. But if you listen to Yankee announcers, or national announcers, he's just god's gift to the game, all around. "He may not make every play, but....he just does, actually. Trust us, not your eyes."
If ________ wins this award, MLB should make a rule where no media or announcers are allowed to mention awards. I think it would be fair that way.
Peter Gammons was in the NESN booth tonight. Almost as inexplicably as Hazel Mae smilingly telling us how the blimp crashed, Peter told us how he used to shag balls during batting practice. But it gets better. He's sometimes throw batting practice. Maybe this is common knowlege. But it wasn't to me. It's a funny image in my head of him throwing to Yaz. "Try this one on for size, gram-paw!"
It was nice how the inning in which they talked to Gammons went on and on. However, of course I was pissed at him when he was asked about the MVP vote. "I think ______ will get it." They're talking about the greatness of Ortiz, on and off the field. And then he goes and tells everybody, including the voters in the audience, that ______ will get it. Peter, the next time someone asked you...if Papi's a god...you say YES. Seriously.
I liked how Peter called Remy "Scoots" as he left. When I was five in summer of '81, I played my first year of Little League. We all got to pick our own nickname. (Terrible job on "Slider," Marc Giacoia.) I chose "Scooter," as I was a little guy, second-baseman-like, and with the same name, albeit spelled differently, than one of everyone's favorite Red Sox at the time, Jerry Remy. But my dad immediately said, "That's Phil Rizzuto's nickname." I guess that superceded. So it was forbidden. I am still, to this day, NOT called Scooter.
Remy also gave his point of view on Papelbon. And it was the same as mine. We've got a vital position filled, right now, by one of the best in the league. Possibly the best. Don't take him out of that position. It seems simple to me. Put him in the rotation, and, if we don't find a closer, or if we use one who can't get the job done, well, that's simply like taking Pap off the team.
Papi added to those MVP stats tonight. League leader in homers, by a lot. League leader in total bases. League leader in RBI. League leader in walks. All despite missing ten games. 2nd in slugging. 3rd in OPS. The guy with these numbers wins the MVP every time. Ish. Wade Boggs never won an MVP despite having a really, really, high average.
Ortiz may be behind ______ in average by 50 points, but his OBP is within 7 points of him right now. And it's not like you can say Ortiz isn't valuable. This is the clutchingest clutchinator ever we're talking about.
The more I think about this thing with ______'s fake, media-invented MVP candidacy, the more angry I get. For Tim McCarver to have the nerve to act like it mattered that the fans of Yankee Stadium chant "MVP" loudly when ______ came up should be a fire-able offense. Michael Fucking Kay decided one day that he was going to make ______ the MVP. Say it enough, oh, and be in New York, and people will just assume it must be true. After Papi got jobbed last year, and they saw they had no chance this year, they just started saying _______'s name over and over again. Surely no one would argue that ______ isn't MVP-worthy, on principle alone. That would be like singing the Russian national anthem before games.
And now people take it seriously. What am I looking at here? The average alone? Where else does he top Ortiz? Where, in some of those categories that Ortiz beat A-Rod in hands-down but still missed out on the award?
I trust the voters in this case. I don't think they'll go completely against what they've always done. Maybe they'll go Dye, Hafner, I don't know. But there is no way it should go to _______. And they should also remember that _______ isn't that great a fielder. But if you listen to Yankee announcers, or national announcers, he's just god's gift to the game, all around. "He may not make every play, but....he just does, actually. Trust us, not your eyes."
If ________ wins this award, MLB should make a rule where no media or announcers are allowed to mention awards. I think it would be fair that way.
Peter Gammons was in the NESN booth tonight. Almost as inexplicably as Hazel Mae smilingly telling us how the blimp crashed, Peter told us how he used to shag balls during batting practice. But it gets better. He's sometimes throw batting practice. Maybe this is common knowlege. But it wasn't to me. It's a funny image in my head of him throwing to Yaz. "Try this one on for size, gram-paw!"
It was nice how the inning in which they talked to Gammons went on and on. However, of course I was pissed at him when he was asked about the MVP vote. "I think ______ will get it." They're talking about the greatness of Ortiz, on and off the field. And then he goes and tells everybody, including the voters in the audience, that ______ will get it. Peter, the next time someone asked you...if Papi's a god...you say YES. Seriously.
I liked how Peter called Remy "Scoots" as he left. When I was five in summer of '81, I played my first year of Little League. We all got to pick our own nickname. (Terrible job on "Slider," Marc Giacoia.) I chose "Scooter," as I was a little guy, second-baseman-like, and with the same name, albeit spelled differently, than one of everyone's favorite Red Sox at the time, Jerry Remy. But my dad immediately said, "That's Phil Rizzuto's nickname." I guess that superceded. So it was forbidden. I am still, to this day, NOT called Scooter.
Remy also gave his point of view on Papelbon. And it was the same as mine. We've got a vital position filled, right now, by one of the best in the league. Possibly the best. Don't take him out of that position. It seems simple to me. Put him in the rotation, and, if we don't find a closer, or if we use one who can't get the job done, well, that's simply like taking Pap off the team.
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TJ by our friend the Yankee fan, on another one of his six-day weekends in the mountains, who still thinks this dictatorship is a democracy.
Is that really what wins it for the Cheater? That he "held the Yanks together?" That is total bullshit. FIne, call him the most valuable guy on his team. But in the whole league? If his name wasn't ____________ and he didn't play in New York, no one would even think of him as a candidate. A high batting average, and the loudest cheers from the dugout. Who would you rather have up with your team down three in the ninth with the bases loaded? Jeter would get a two-run, BULLSHIT weak-ass bloop to right, to cut the lead to one, before Sheffield strikes out to end the game. Papi would win the game for you.
Is that really what wins it for the Cheater? That he "held the Yanks together?" That is total bullshit. FIne, call him the most valuable guy on his team. But in the whole league? If his name wasn't ____________ and he didn't play in New York, no one would even think of him as a candidate. A high batting average, and the loudest cheers from the dugout. Who would you rather have up with your team down three in the ninth with the bases loaded? Jeter would get a two-run, BULLSHIT weak-ass bloop to right, to cut the lead to one, before Sheffield strikes out to end the game. Papi would win the game for you.
None of those stats count in the MVP race, we learned last year, and every other year. All right, this conversation with myself is over.
I had such a good time last night watching our 5th to last '06 game. And it was as it should be. A solid performance (more than that) by our ace, and the 'pen as it should be. And the offense....I know you know. Take care Jere. And Papi...4 left to get to 55, or.......dare I say more. And maybe a Manny sighting too. I wonder if he will get a positive crowd reaction, a mixed one, or?? What do you think Jere??
I'm rooting for 60! I hope to see Manny this weekend as well. I will be cheering. So will everyone else.
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If his name wasn't ____________ and he didn't play in New York, no one would even think of him as a candidate.
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I would.
Boggs also deserved probably something like 2 MVPs in his career.
Debating the argument that Jeter deserves it because he's got intangibles and he holds the team together or whatever is a strawman. Some people might make it, but it's obviously nonsensical, just like if someone said Ortiz should win because he's a great clubhouse presence and blah blah blah.
Derek Jeter deserves to be among the top three at worst because he's had one of the best overall offensive seasons in the league while doing it as a SS, which absolutely adds to his value. As I've mentioned, if I had a vote, it'd be Mauer. But Jeter (and Ortiz and Sizemore and Hafner and Dye) would not be far behind.
The reasons Jeter is going to win are based mostly on what I can assume were someone like DaaYankee's arguments, but a blind squirrel like the BBWAA getting a nut doesn't bother me. Jeter's a fine pick.
If his name wasn't ____________ and he didn't play in New York, no one would even think of him as a candidate.
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I would.
Boggs also deserved probably something like 2 MVPs in his career.
Debating the argument that Jeter deserves it because he's got intangibles and he holds the team together or whatever is a strawman. Some people might make it, but it's obviously nonsensical, just like if someone said Ortiz should win because he's a great clubhouse presence and blah blah blah.
Derek Jeter deserves to be among the top three at worst because he's had one of the best overall offensive seasons in the league while doing it as a SS, which absolutely adds to his value. As I've mentioned, if I had a vote, it'd be Mauer. But Jeter (and Ortiz and Sizemore and Hafner and Dye) would not be far behind.
The reasons Jeter is going to win are based mostly on what I can assume were someone like DaaYankee's arguments, but a blind squirrel like the BBWAA getting a nut doesn't bother me. Jeter's a fine pick.
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Remy also gave his point of view on Papelbon. And it was the same as mine. We've got a vital position filled, right now, by one of the best in the league. Possibly the best. Don't take him out of that position. It seems simple to me. Put him in the rotation, and, if we don't find a closer, or if we use one who can't get the job done, well, that's simply like taking Pap off the team.
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I guess it's a decision between two values- innings at less dominance or dominance in fewer innings of higher leverage.
At this point, I'm about 95% sure the innings are more important to this and most teams, even if it means his ERA jumps to the high 3's or low 4's.
Of the two- closer or starter- the former is easier and cheaper to fill. If you don't utilize Papelbon's flexibility to move nto the rotation, you have to find pitchers to fill two rotation spots instead of one, and then have less $$ allocated for offensive upgrade, etc.
Nothing's definite though- there will be a huge hole no matter where you put him, so, might as well put him in the bigger role. They also may have determined that regular, regimented work pattern will be more healthy on his shoulder going forward.
Remy also gave his point of view on Papelbon. And it was the same as mine. We've got a vital position filled, right now, by one of the best in the league. Possibly the best. Don't take him out of that position. It seems simple to me. Put him in the rotation, and, if we don't find a closer, or if we use one who can't get the job done, well, that's simply like taking Pap off the team.
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I guess it's a decision between two values- innings at less dominance or dominance in fewer innings of higher leverage.
At this point, I'm about 95% sure the innings are more important to this and most teams, even if it means his ERA jumps to the high 3's or low 4's.
Of the two- closer or starter- the former is easier and cheaper to fill. If you don't utilize Papelbon's flexibility to move nto the rotation, you have to find pitchers to fill two rotation spots instead of one, and then have less $$ allocated for offensive upgrade, etc.
Nothing's definite though- there will be a huge hole no matter where you put him, so, might as well put him in the bigger role. They also may have determined that regular, regimented work pattern will be more healthy on his shoulder going forward.
I just feel like we can get more wins by having him pitch in more games, and at the most crucial point in the game every time.
If he goes to the rotation, well, it'll be a great pitcher in our rotation, so I'll be fine with it. I'm just putting my vote in for him as closer.
If you look at the league leaders, you see ______ third in average (thanks, Cano), and, like, nowhere else. It seems like these basic categories combined with, sometimes, if your team makes the playoffs, are what determine MVPs. Are they really gonna see 55, 56 home runs and vote for someone else? If they do, it seems they'd have to at least take a guy like Dye, who's much higher in average, but still has great power numbers.
I know you'd look at _______ even if the media wasn't selling him, but it's up to the dumbass voters. They always seem to pick the guy that the announcers and anchors say the name of the most. These people could've thrown _________'s name around in a couple of other years where he deserved the MVP, but they chose to do it this year, probably because he never got one, and because every other Yankee missed too much time to be considered, and god forbid there's no Yankee in the hunt.
As soon as Kay started saying his name in the debate, I am sre that if his numbers had severly dropped off, it wouldn't have mattered. Once he got it into the country's head, they were hooked on the idea, so, even without any kind of numbers, they'd say, "well he held the Yanks together" or some crap like that. Do you think if you gave any other Yankee's injury to him this year, they wouldn't be in first? I don't.
By the way, he's not that great a fielder.
And I'm calling him _______ because I refuse to say his name in this discussion, since I don't believe he should be in it.
It's a real shame that Ortiz missed those games. It seems like it became hip to say "Oh, well, he doesn't deserve it this year," when it happened, but he came back strong as it turns out.
If he goes to the rotation, well, it'll be a great pitcher in our rotation, so I'll be fine with it. I'm just putting my vote in for him as closer.
If you look at the league leaders, you see ______ third in average (thanks, Cano), and, like, nowhere else. It seems like these basic categories combined with, sometimes, if your team makes the playoffs, are what determine MVPs. Are they really gonna see 55, 56 home runs and vote for someone else? If they do, it seems they'd have to at least take a guy like Dye, who's much higher in average, but still has great power numbers.
I know you'd look at _______ even if the media wasn't selling him, but it's up to the dumbass voters. They always seem to pick the guy that the announcers and anchors say the name of the most. These people could've thrown _________'s name around in a couple of other years where he deserved the MVP, but they chose to do it this year, probably because he never got one, and because every other Yankee missed too much time to be considered, and god forbid there's no Yankee in the hunt.
As soon as Kay started saying his name in the debate, I am sre that if his numbers had severly dropped off, it wouldn't have mattered. Once he got it into the country's head, they were hooked on the idea, so, even without any kind of numbers, they'd say, "well he held the Yanks together" or some crap like that. Do you think if you gave any other Yankee's injury to him this year, they wouldn't be in first? I don't.
By the way, he's not that great a fielder.
And I'm calling him _______ because I refuse to say his name in this discussion, since I don't believe he should be in it.
It's a real shame that Ortiz missed those games. It seems like it became hip to say "Oh, well, he doesn't deserve it this year," when it happened, but he came back strong as it turns out.
This whole MVP is more about SPONSORS than Players:
"A-Jerk" is a Pepsi-Pusher while _____ pushes "DRIVEL";
Ahh, but my "YES Network" & "FOX Sports" Drinking Games, will carry the No Name Version of That Player, who will NOT be mentioned.
"A-Jerk" is a Pepsi-Pusher while _____ pushes "DRIVEL";
Ahh, but my "YES Network" & "FOX Sports" Drinking Games, will carry the No Name Version of That Player, who will NOT be mentioned.
Saying you think he shouldn't win is one thing- I'm essentially saying the same thing. Saying he shouldn't be in the discussion is 100% incorrect.
Look at win shares, VORP, WARP. He's been, at worst, one of the five most valuable players in the league. It's annoying how Kay-types are framing the argument, and you're right that it's an end-of-the-year buzzfest that incorrectly awards it, but Jeter just happens to deserve it, too. HRs do not equal MVPs necessarily.
Also- re: Papelbon, I think you're simplifying the cause and effect of moving him too much. Let's assume he comes somewhere close to 200 IP as a starter, theoretically. Let's say he comes close to 75 IP as a starter in higher-lev situations.
The 200 IP is more valuable. NOw, this isn't happening in a vacuum, so if we sign, say, Zito and Matsuzaka, then yea, great, keep him where he is. But if given the option, I'd prefer the 200 IP.
Plus, it's entirely possible they've determined this the route to go because it's the more healthy route for his shoulder long-term, which makes it an even better bet in my book.
Look at win shares, VORP, WARP. He's been, at worst, one of the five most valuable players in the league. It's annoying how Kay-types are framing the argument, and you're right that it's an end-of-the-year buzzfest that incorrectly awards it, but Jeter just happens to deserve it, too. HRs do not equal MVPs necessarily.
Also- re: Papelbon, I think you're simplifying the cause and effect of moving him too much. Let's assume he comes somewhere close to 200 IP as a starter, theoretically. Let's say he comes close to 75 IP as a starter in higher-lev situations.
The 200 IP is more valuable. NOw, this isn't happening in a vacuum, so if we sign, say, Zito and Matsuzaka, then yea, great, keep him where he is. But if given the option, I'd prefer the 200 IP.
Plus, it's entirely possible they've determined this the route to go because it's the more healthy route for his shoulder long-term, which makes it an even better bet in my book.
It's not that I think he shouldn't be in the MVP discussion, it's that I think he shouldn't be in the "winning the MVP" discussion.
What were A-Rod's numbers in those categories last year?
Matsuzaka--that reminds me: Now that Chan and I are in the city, we've been trying to figure out A. if there was any truth to the gyro place at the subway stop, and B. if it's really possible to buy one and get back on the train in time. Any help there?
What were A-Rod's numbers in those categories last year?
Matsuzaka--that reminds me: Now that Chan and I are in the city, we've been trying to figure out A. if there was any truth to the gyro place at the subway stop, and B. if it's really possible to buy one and get back on the train in time. Any help there?
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It's not that I think he shouldn't be in the MVP discussion, it's that I think he shouldn't be in the "winning the MVP" discussion.
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I don't get the difference-
Anyway, he's been among the five most valuable players in the AL from what I can gather, and since these aren't an exacto-knife science, a top five guy winning when they're bunched in like they are this year is fine by me.
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What were A-Rod's numbers in those categories last year?
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Not sure- why? Either way, Rodriguez was the most valuable player in the AL last year.
The debate is usually a fluid one, so sometimes it's a race between two power hitters and that's relevant. Then there are years like this one, where it's between ~5 guys, some of which are power guys, others being more all-around value relative to peers, etc, and one of them is a pitcher.
It's not that I think he shouldn't be in the MVP discussion, it's that I think he shouldn't be in the "winning the MVP" discussion.
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I don't get the difference-
Anyway, he's been among the five most valuable players in the AL from what I can gather, and since these aren't an exacto-knife science, a top five guy winning when they're bunched in like they are this year is fine by me.
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What were A-Rod's numbers in those categories last year?
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Not sure- why? Either way, Rodriguez was the most valuable player in the AL last year.
The debate is usually a fluid one, so sometimes it's a race between two power hitters and that's relevant. Then there are years like this one, where it's between ~5 guys, some of which are power guys, others being more all-around value relative to peers, etc, and one of them is a pitcher.
A-Rod was worse than Ortiz in so many of those categories last year, like, the ones that tell you got hits when it mattered. But he still won, apparently because his HR/RBI/AVG were better than Papi's.
I still think the media really persuades the voters, by saying certain names more than others, and that's what I'm mad about.
I still think the media really persuades the voters, by saying certain names more than others, and that's what I'm mad about.
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A-Rod was worse than Ortiz in so many of those categories last year, like, the ones that tell you got hits when it mattered.
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Which stats? Rodriguez had a higher VORP, WARP1, WARP3, had more Win Shares, and had him beat in nearly every conventional offensive statistic AND he played defense where Ortiz doesn't.
I mean, some close and late numbers are interesting in the comparison, but they're far from the final word on value. The other numbers are much more comprehensive and convincing.
A-Rod was worse than Ortiz in so many of those categories last year, like, the ones that tell you got hits when it mattered.
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Which stats? Rodriguez had a higher VORP, WARP1, WARP3, had more Win Shares, and had him beat in nearly every conventional offensive statistic AND he played defense where Ortiz doesn't.
I mean, some close and late numbers are interesting in the comparison, but they're far from the final word on value. The other numbers are much more comprehensive and convincing.
Yes, I do, and I never bought that argument, for a number of reasons. Long story short-
- It's a slice-and-dice of situations based on- in many cases- sample sizes way too small
- It's not logical to deem Rodriguez's production in games they won by a lot less important than games they won by a little. He was clearly a huge cog in those blowouts, and that counts for just as much as a clutch performance.
People zeroed in on Ortiz's close and late, and that's an absolute notch in his favor. But the absolutely overwhelming evidence in addition to that- which Joy wisely chronicles at the beginning- goes to Arod.
MVP is an award for the best player, and Alex was that last year. Ortiz may have been the player with the best performance in close and late situations, but that doesn't trump superior value across an entire season.
I'm of the mind it really wasn't close between them, actually, especially considering David wasn't even the best DH in the league in 2005 (or 2006, actually)- that was Travis Hafner.
- It's a slice-and-dice of situations based on- in many cases- sample sizes way too small
- It's not logical to deem Rodriguez's production in games they won by a lot less important than games they won by a little. He was clearly a huge cog in those blowouts, and that counts for just as much as a clutch performance.
People zeroed in on Ortiz's close and late, and that's an absolute notch in his favor. But the absolutely overwhelming evidence in addition to that- which Joy wisely chronicles at the beginning- goes to Arod.
MVP is an award for the best player, and Alex was that last year. Ortiz may have been the player with the best performance in close and late situations, but that doesn't trump superior value across an entire season.
I'm of the mind it really wasn't close between them, actually, especially considering David wasn't even the best DH in the league in 2005 (or 2006, actually)- that was Travis Hafner.
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