Monday, August 21, 2006
Weekend
Where was Kapstein on Saturday?
About last night: I think I must have set a new record of latest time being at Fenway. And I set my earliest time record on Patriots' Day this year. So I've seen all but 7 or so hours of the 24-hour standard day at Fenway this year alone.
My main problem with last night was that if Tito knew Pap could get six outs, why didn't he just start the eighth with him?
Hansen stinks.
The Jeter game-tying hit. Classic. The cheapest little thing, as always. Right fielders should take ten steps in whenever he's up. If they did, he'd be a .200 hitter.
And about this Jeter being an MVP candidate thing: Total BS. Invented by Michael Kay. I've come to realize that announcers decide award-winners. They have the power to create a buzz about a player. The voters don't know shit; they see their hometown players, but after that, all they do is listen to what other people say. So I was watching when Kay, one day, decided that since A-Rod was clearly gonna lose to Papi this year, he'd go ahead and start saying that "Jeter's having an MVP-type season." I listened to this crap from this megalomaniac for a while, and then on Friday, knowing he'd fully put the MVP thought in people's heads, he came out with this: "The general mindset in baseball is that you've got two MVP candidates: Jeter and Ortiz."
Michael Kay is a horrible man.
Anyway, I thought, okay, Jeter has the average, but Manny's getting close to him in that department. Sure enough, they're now within ten points of each other. Only Manny has 34 homers to Jeter's 10, and 100 RBI to his 74. .444 OBP to Jeter's .413. .637 SLG to Jeter's .472.
So, Pigfucker, if Jeter's in this race with Papi, which he isn't anyway, then put Manny right in there with him.
While writing all that, I'm watching game 5, and Kay went right into another Jeter asskissing session. He just asked Flaherty, "I know the lay fan just marvels at what Jeter does, but do other players marvel at him in the clubhouse?" Then as Kay brought up the catch where Jeter dove into the stands in 2004, (which symbolized the Yanks' "big show, no results" way of the past few seasons, and Pokey's catch was better, anyway), the replay of it appeared instantly. In other words, this was another pre-planned "let's get Jeter an MVP" setup. These guys, the entire Yankee announcing crew, should be lined up and shot. In the kneecaps.
And that includes Jim Kaat. I've given him credit in the past, and yes, he's their best analyst, and knows how to do that job, but not only has he become senile before our ears, he's also become more and more of a Steinbrenner shill. He joins the rest of that crew: Kay, Justice, Lorenz, Leiter, etc, on my DTM list. (Dead to me.)
Hey, lets' just bring up real quick how Cory Lidle's grandma died, he found out about it, then bought some Jujy Fruits, in other words, got his start in, and then went on the bereavement list.
Only the Yankees would do this. "You get your start in, then go, and we'll get a reliever to take your place for the three days you're out, since you wouldn't have been available anyway." Only the Yanks would find a loophole in a rule that invloves grandma dying. That's two horrible things done by Seinfeld characters at once: The Jujy Fruits and the Death Certificate.
I've said it my whole life: Between that stuff, the guys on steroids, the pure ass holes, the Jeter bloops, I don't know how any human being could root for that team.
I don't remember what I was talking about. Anyway, the good news about the Yanks winning these games is that they're getting cocky again. As we know, when they beat us, it's "their World Series," since they can't win a real one. So this is looking like another one of those great years when Yankee fans think they're going to win, but they totally don't.
It's pretty bad when the best part of a Red Sox-Yankees weekend is the part when Samuel L. Jackson took that one snake and... well, I won't give it away, go see SOAP at a theater near you. Sneak food and drink in.
Hey, the Sox just left the bases loaded! Whatta ya know! 0-0 after 4. I'd like to get the win today. One win in a five-game series. Is that too much to ask? Oh great, Manny left the game. What next?
Oh, and Wily Mo's getting his own post. I didn't forget about him.
About last night: I think I must have set a new record of latest time being at Fenway. And I set my earliest time record on Patriots' Day this year. So I've seen all but 7 or so hours of the 24-hour standard day at Fenway this year alone.
My main problem with last night was that if Tito knew Pap could get six outs, why didn't he just start the eighth with him?
Hansen stinks.
The Jeter game-tying hit. Classic. The cheapest little thing, as always. Right fielders should take ten steps in whenever he's up. If they did, he'd be a .200 hitter.
And about this Jeter being an MVP candidate thing: Total BS. Invented by Michael Kay. I've come to realize that announcers decide award-winners. They have the power to create a buzz about a player. The voters don't know shit; they see their hometown players, but after that, all they do is listen to what other people say. So I was watching when Kay, one day, decided that since A-Rod was clearly gonna lose to Papi this year, he'd go ahead and start saying that "Jeter's having an MVP-type season." I listened to this crap from this megalomaniac for a while, and then on Friday, knowing he'd fully put the MVP thought in people's heads, he came out with this: "The general mindset in baseball is that you've got two MVP candidates: Jeter and Ortiz."
Michael Kay is a horrible man.
Anyway, I thought, okay, Jeter has the average, but Manny's getting close to him in that department. Sure enough, they're now within ten points of each other. Only Manny has 34 homers to Jeter's 10, and 100 RBI to his 74. .444 OBP to Jeter's .413. .637 SLG to Jeter's .472.
So, Pigfucker, if Jeter's in this race with Papi, which he isn't anyway, then put Manny right in there with him.
While writing all that, I'm watching game 5, and Kay went right into another Jeter asskissing session. He just asked Flaherty, "I know the lay fan just marvels at what Jeter does, but do other players marvel at him in the clubhouse?" Then as Kay brought up the catch where Jeter dove into the stands in 2004, (which symbolized the Yanks' "big show, no results" way of the past few seasons, and Pokey's catch was better, anyway), the replay of it appeared instantly. In other words, this was another pre-planned "let's get Jeter an MVP" setup. These guys, the entire Yankee announcing crew, should be lined up and shot. In the kneecaps.
And that includes Jim Kaat. I've given him credit in the past, and yes, he's their best analyst, and knows how to do that job, but not only has he become senile before our ears, he's also become more and more of a Steinbrenner shill. He joins the rest of that crew: Kay, Justice, Lorenz, Leiter, etc, on my DTM list. (Dead to me.)
Hey, lets' just bring up real quick how Cory Lidle's grandma died, he found out about it, then bought some Jujy Fruits, in other words, got his start in, and then went on the bereavement list.
Only the Yankees would do this. "You get your start in, then go, and we'll get a reliever to take your place for the three days you're out, since you wouldn't have been available anyway." Only the Yanks would find a loophole in a rule that invloves grandma dying. That's two horrible things done by Seinfeld characters at once: The Jujy Fruits and the Death Certificate.
I've said it my whole life: Between that stuff, the guys on steroids, the pure ass holes, the Jeter bloops, I don't know how any human being could root for that team.
I don't remember what I was talking about. Anyway, the good news about the Yanks winning these games is that they're getting cocky again. As we know, when they beat us, it's "their World Series," since they can't win a real one. So this is looking like another one of those great years when Yankee fans think they're going to win, but they totally don't.
It's pretty bad when the best part of a Red Sox-Yankees weekend is the part when Samuel L. Jackson took that one snake and... well, I won't give it away, go see SOAP at a theater near you. Sneak food and drink in.
Hey, the Sox just left the bases loaded! Whatta ya know! 0-0 after 4. I'd like to get the win today. One win in a five-game series. Is that too much to ask? Oh great, Manny left the game. What next?
Oh, and Wily Mo's getting his own post. I didn't forget about him.
Comments:
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Only Manny has 34 homers to Jeter's 10, and 100 RBI to his 74. .444 OBP to Jeter's .413. .637 SLG to Jeter's .472.
But Jeter has all those intangibles.
But Jeter has all those intangibles.
Other than not bringing in Papelbon to start the 8th...
Why not walk Jeter and face Abreu?
Why bunt with Youkilis?
Why not have Hinske bunt?
Why Timlin and not Foulke/Tavarez?
Why Hansen and not Foulke/Tavarez?
Lay off Wily Mo unless you're going to say you that after this weekend, you realize how terrible Kapler is and how much of an upgrade Pena is over him. Last time I checked, Arroyo was right-handed and got his ass handed to him by the Yankees last year (6.57 ERA, 2.11 WHIP, .368 BAA). Plus Wily Mo was the only one with a pulse today - 2-3 with a HR today.
Why not walk Jeter and face Abreu?
Why bunt with Youkilis?
Why not have Hinske bunt?
Why Timlin and not Foulke/Tavarez?
Why Hansen and not Foulke/Tavarez?
Lay off Wily Mo unless you're going to say you that after this weekend, you realize how terrible Kapler is and how much of an upgrade Pena is over him. Last time I checked, Arroyo was right-handed and got his ass handed to him by the Yankees last year (6.57 ERA, 2.11 WHIP, .368 BAA). Plus Wily Mo was the only one with a pulse today - 2-3 with a HR today.
The5th game straight that 'it wasn't meant to be." I blame the players, not Theo. At least for these debacles. Oh, and Tito for not Papping early enough yesterday.
I agree Manny should be in the MVP debate, so should Jermaine Dye. That's neither here nor there, no different than the entire staff from the Globe getting on NESN and advocating for Big Papi. Of course that doesn't count for you.
You always have a f'en excuse when the Yanks win. This time though they slapped the shit out of your team. Not only did the Red Sox lose, they took a anal raping by the Yanks.
Oh wait...you still have 2004.
Pop in the 2004 World Series DVD and masturbate till your tweeters snap. After you are done, put rubbing alcohol around your scrotum area and yell, "I love the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox". You need something else to light a fire under your balls.
Why do you even go off on Jeter? Do you think it's some fluke that he has over 2,000 hits in his career? Do you understand that comparing Jeter's stats to Big Papi's is like comparing apples to oranges? Maybe you don't, your Red Sox glasses don't let you see anything too with objectivity. Jeter runs the bases well, steals, hits for average, hits for occasional pop, etc. Jeter will never have the run production as Papi or Manny. Very few in the majors ever will because those two are so great at driving in runs, especially Manny. If I had to choose between Manny, David, and Jeter, I think that Manny is more deserving of the MVP than both Jeter and Ortiz. But Manny has a stigma (no hustle, idiot, clueless, etc) attached to his name and he's not the lovable figure that Papi is or the media darling that Jeter is, so we are left with Papi and Jeter. If the Red Sox don't make the playoffs, then you can kiss Papi's MVP chances goodbye.
Why would anyone root for the Yankees? Cause I grew up in NY and I've always rooted for them. Pretty simple. I didn't grow up in a state with no identity. Oh wait….you did. That explains your inability to ever look at things rationally. Grow up already and look at your team and stop worrying about the Yanks.
You always have a f'en excuse when the Yanks win. This time though they slapped the shit out of your team. Not only did the Red Sox lose, they took a anal raping by the Yanks.
Oh wait...you still have 2004.
Pop in the 2004 World Series DVD and masturbate till your tweeters snap. After you are done, put rubbing alcohol around your scrotum area and yell, "I love the 2004 World Series Champion Red Sox". You need something else to light a fire under your balls.
Why do you even go off on Jeter? Do you think it's some fluke that he has over 2,000 hits in his career? Do you understand that comparing Jeter's stats to Big Papi's is like comparing apples to oranges? Maybe you don't, your Red Sox glasses don't let you see anything too with objectivity. Jeter runs the bases well, steals, hits for average, hits for occasional pop, etc. Jeter will never have the run production as Papi or Manny. Very few in the majors ever will because those two are so great at driving in runs, especially Manny. If I had to choose between Manny, David, and Jeter, I think that Manny is more deserving of the MVP than both Jeter and Ortiz. But Manny has a stigma (no hustle, idiot, clueless, etc) attached to his name and he's not the lovable figure that Papi is or the media darling that Jeter is, so we are left with Papi and Jeter. If the Red Sox don't make the playoffs, then you can kiss Papi's MVP chances goodbye.
Why would anyone root for the Yankees? Cause I grew up in NY and I've always rooted for them. Pretty simple. I didn't grow up in a state with no identity. Oh wait….you did. That explains your inability to ever look at things rationally. Grow up already and look at your team and stop worrying about the Yanks.
Jeter's a great player but he shouldn't be in the MVP discussion. The only reason he's there is because he's a Yankee. If you take him away from the Yankees, do you really think they miss the playoffs? I don't.
If there's a case for any non-David Ortiz candidate using all of the pro-Jeter arguments (should go to a position player, why do only HR count, doing the little things, defense counts) then it should go to Joe Mauer. He's doing more this year from a tougher position. I think it should go to Ortiz though. The Red Sox would be below .500 without him.
If there's a case for any non-David Ortiz candidate using all of the pro-Jeter arguments (should go to a position player, why do only HR count, doing the little things, defense counts) then it should go to Joe Mauer. He's doing more this year from a tougher position. I think it should go to Ortiz though. The Red Sox would be below .500 without him.
Can this Yankee fan make a point without using homophobic and/or racist remarks? Geesh. Interesting that you can't take enough pleasure in the fact that the Yankees swept the Red Sox. No. Not good enough. You have to come to a Red Sox blog and start grinding your heel in our faces. That's "classy." Just how on earth do you think your comments are going to be taken? What are you looking for? Are you hoping that we're all going to smile big and wide and thank you for all the valuable insight? Yeah, I'm just not disappointed enough after this weekend - what I REALLY need is a good dose of "rub my nose in it" from some know-it-all, nothing better do to with his time Yankee fuck to start telling me how things "really" are. I used to think your earlier comments were interesting. Now, I'm starting to think otherwise. I guess that all of Red Sox Nation should simply abandon ship, run out to the nearest Modell's and turn in their Sox gear in favor of pinstripes. Actually, that couldn't be the furthest thing from your wish list. Face it - a small person like yourself wants nothing more than to walk around all inflated by this weekend and heighten your high by bearing down more on the Sox fan. It's sad that you can't just sit back and enjoy your team's victory without being an asshole on top of it.
In regards to "Daaaaaaa":
You sound like one of those guys who couldn't spell the word "Suck" or "Sucks" without "Hooked on Phonics";
TJ, Daaaaaa, BTW.
You sound like one of those guys who couldn't spell the word "Suck" or "Sucks" without "Hooked on Phonics";
TJ, Daaaaaa, BTW.
Sox Girl, well said...I probably shouldn't gloat but Jere always brings out the "best" in me. Seriously, if Jere just didn't spout garbage and didn't throw rocks when living in a glass house then I probably wouldn't feel the need to do this shit. I'm not being sarcastic or making fun of you, but I agree that it isn't the nicest thing in the world to come here and make your life even more miserable. I definitely didn't like it in 2004 and I don't think Jere ever came to my house to make me feel worse, however, I didn't know about Jere's blog then and I'm fascinated by his rants. Sometimes it's funny and appropriate, but other times it's just stupid and I guess I feel the need to call him out.
I encourage him to go off on Kay, but I don't like it when he goes off on Jeter and makes stupid comments that make no sense. I couldn't stand the 2004 Red Sox team, but I had crazy amount of respect for players like Mueller, Damon, Papi, Timlin and V-Tek. Didn't particularly care for Millar, Schilling or Trawt (though he plays hard and gives his all). I think Jeter deserves to be in the MVP debate, as does Mauer (whom I forgot about), Manny and Papi, but to make it seem like Jeter is some utility player who just happened to have a good year makes his argument sound cheap, makes him look stupid and uninformed.
I am a baseball fan first and a Yankee fan second, this is what my point is about. You can hate the MFY, Dunbars, etc, all you want but we should never lose sight of the fact that there are some great players that play on both these teams. I wish I could say that Papi's late inning heroics are lucky and he really isn't that good, but you tell me...how stupid will I sound? You would agree that I would be foolish to say something like that. To make it sound as if Jeter doesn't deserve to be an MVP, doesn't deserve any consideration whatsoever then that's also stupid. It's not about the stupid intangibles, the numbers don't lie. He produces runs, whether it be by a steal, running the bases, his hitting, etc, all those elements in the game of baseball contribute to runs. It's no lie that runs are what wins games. Those things cannot be compared to Papi's or Manny's power and production numbers the same way and act all smart by showing the disparity with their run production vs. Jeters. Jeter had two memorable plays this series, Friday night and Sunday night, to make it seem like he's just lucky and not really that good then you really aren't a baseball fan. To be a baseball fan means appreciating other players that don't play on your team and recognizing their talents and achievements. I hated the way the 2004 ALCS turned out, but I still feel that the best game I ever saw was the game 5 between the Yanks and Sawx that year. It was a game the Yanks lost and contributed to the biggest choke ever. Are you feeling me yet? That wasn't meant to be dirty either.
I'm glad savethejellyfish pointed out Mauer to me because he's another player that should probably win the MVP, probably more so than Papi, Jeter or Manny. If you look at Mauer's numbers though you'll see that they are similar to Jeter's.
I know you and Jere are friends so I know you'll never take my side and I don't expect you to. But I will try and make my point and at least be respectful if we can look at things objectively.
Have a good night!
BTW, I'm only a small person on the inside....I'm a rather large human being, err, Neanderthal.
I encourage him to go off on Kay, but I don't like it when he goes off on Jeter and makes stupid comments that make no sense. I couldn't stand the 2004 Red Sox team, but I had crazy amount of respect for players like Mueller, Damon, Papi, Timlin and V-Tek. Didn't particularly care for Millar, Schilling or Trawt (though he plays hard and gives his all). I think Jeter deserves to be in the MVP debate, as does Mauer (whom I forgot about), Manny and Papi, but to make it seem like Jeter is some utility player who just happened to have a good year makes his argument sound cheap, makes him look stupid and uninformed.
I am a baseball fan first and a Yankee fan second, this is what my point is about. You can hate the MFY, Dunbars, etc, all you want but we should never lose sight of the fact that there are some great players that play on both these teams. I wish I could say that Papi's late inning heroics are lucky and he really isn't that good, but you tell me...how stupid will I sound? You would agree that I would be foolish to say something like that. To make it sound as if Jeter doesn't deserve to be an MVP, doesn't deserve any consideration whatsoever then that's also stupid. It's not about the stupid intangibles, the numbers don't lie. He produces runs, whether it be by a steal, running the bases, his hitting, etc, all those elements in the game of baseball contribute to runs. It's no lie that runs are what wins games. Those things cannot be compared to Papi's or Manny's power and production numbers the same way and act all smart by showing the disparity with their run production vs. Jeters. Jeter had two memorable plays this series, Friday night and Sunday night, to make it seem like he's just lucky and not really that good then you really aren't a baseball fan. To be a baseball fan means appreciating other players that don't play on your team and recognizing their talents and achievements. I hated the way the 2004 ALCS turned out, but I still feel that the best game I ever saw was the game 5 between the Yanks and Sawx that year. It was a game the Yanks lost and contributed to the biggest choke ever. Are you feeling me yet? That wasn't meant to be dirty either.
I'm glad savethejellyfish pointed out Mauer to me because he's another player that should probably win the MVP, probably more so than Papi, Jeter or Manny. If you look at Mauer's numbers though you'll see that they are similar to Jeter's.
I know you and Jere are friends so I know you'll never take my side and I don't expect you to. But I will try and make my point and at least be respectful if we can look at things objectively.
Have a good night!
BTW, I'm only a small person on the inside....I'm a rather large human being, err, Neanderthal.
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I'm glad savethejellyfish pointed out Mauer to me because he's another player that should probably win the MVP, probably more so than Papi, Jeter or Manny. If you look at Mauer's numbers though you'll see that they are similar to Jeter's.
*******
I'm not advocating Mauer, I'm saying that if you really believe the Jeter arguments, then the vote should go to Mauer, who is a gold-glover at a tougher position, and catches a good game.
That said, it's the "Most Valuable Player" award, not the "Best Yankee Award". Most valuable means most crucial to a team's success - indispensible - and that has been Ortiz the last two years. If anything, Ortiz deserves it more this year not only because of what he's done this year, but because of how badly he was screwed over last year. The idea that ARod is an MVP is just laughable - the Yankees are doing fine with him underperforming offensively and defensively this year.
I'm glad savethejellyfish pointed out Mauer to me because he's another player that should probably win the MVP, probably more so than Papi, Jeter or Manny. If you look at Mauer's numbers though you'll see that they are similar to Jeter's.
*******
I'm not advocating Mauer, I'm saying that if you really believe the Jeter arguments, then the vote should go to Mauer, who is a gold-glover at a tougher position, and catches a good game.
That said, it's the "Most Valuable Player" award, not the "Best Yankee Award". Most valuable means most crucial to a team's success - indispensible - and that has been Ortiz the last two years. If anything, Ortiz deserves it more this year not only because of what he's done this year, but because of how badly he was screwed over last year. The idea that ARod is an MVP is just laughable - the Yankees are doing fine with him underperforming offensively and defensively this year.
I suppose it's pretty easy for a Yankee fan to ask a fan of another team to look at the game objectively. If I were a die hard Patriots fan, I might suggest that the Brady haters stop making negative comments and offer up a little respect. The man is a God. Unbelievable. I might tell those whiny Colts fans to lay off of Brady. It's a lot easier to demand objectivity when your team goes on to win championship after championship and you simply expect it after a while. And I fully expect the Patriots to have a competitive team for a long, long time. I don't really worry about it much. But, as a Sox fan, I completely empathize with the Manning worshipers. The difference is, I don't go running to Colts blogs and start spraying their comments sections with all my holier than thou rhetoric. I understand what you are saying, but please look at this from our vantage point. None of us are sports analysts. We are fans. As a fan, I do have respect for some aspects of the Yankee organization. I think that Torre is an amazing manager and a fair man. I like Bernie Williams. And though I don't care for Cashman, I feel for the guy. He's a shell of a human being thanks to the owner of the franchise. I used to really like Andy Pettite (and not just because I had a crush on him - something I thoroughly hated myself for) and I respected, but also really despised, Paul O'Neill. The point is, I understood where the talent was. But there is no way ... NO WAY ... I'm going to sit back year after f'n year as a Sox fan and talk objectively about the Yankees. I could probably do it a lot easier if I didn't have to live with those parasites in my division, year after year, threatening my chances of winning. But I do. Steinbrenner has deep pockets and makes impulsive decisions to "win right now." He can afford to make mistakes that we can't. I know what you're thinking - oh, here we go again, another jaded Sox fan blaming the gap in expendable money. Well, it's true. The Yankees can overpay for a bust like Pavano. We can't. If we overpay, we have to deal away and suffer the monetary consequences (Reneteria). The little bit of edge that the Yankees have over the Sox in terms of cash flow makes the difference between winning and losing most of the time. Also, it changes our team building strategy. We have to be really smart and calculated about what we do and you guys have the luxury of being able to go after things with a bit more gusto.
Classic comment by "thebigfish" above. A Yankee fan coming out of the woodwork after they sweep us.
Kind of like the ones at Fenway Sunday night in a nearby section who sat quietly until the Yanks had the lead before outwardly cheering for the Yanks.
Kind of like the ones at Fenway Sunday night in a nearby section who sat quietly until the Yanks had the lead before outwardly cheering for the Yanks.
It's funny how every time the Sawx lose it's always the payroll angle you guys take. Were the Nationals complaining about payroll when the Sawx rolled right through them? I find it to be a very convenient argument, despite the disparity between both teams, because you guys have a similar disparity when you play the other teams in MLB and I don't hear their fan base complaining. How about the A's? Did they complain when they made a offer to Keith Foulke and he went and took the larger offer from the Red Sox. How about the Indians? Were they mad when they made a competitive offer to Manny and the offer the Sawx made him was far greater? How about Damon? You think the A's or Royals were made to see him leave, imagine the Royals with an outfield of Damon, Dye and Beltran. All those guys played for the Royals. Don't get all pissy about payroll w/o carefully understanding that you all never would have won a championship w/o YOUR own exorbitant amount of funds. It wasn't home grown talent who won it for you.....it was a group of mercenaries that were brought in to compete against the Yankees. If you want to critique the Yanks payroll then do it when they beat up on the Royals or Marlins, don't insult my intelligence and put yourself in the shoes of the small market teams.
Anyhow, I hate the Patriots but the one player I totally respect is Brady. I respect him because he is treated like Jeter and people act as if he isn't that great, he probably isn't as good as Peyton, but if I had to start a football team then Brady would be my first pick. All the guy does is win. I really respect that.
Anyhow, I hate the Patriots but the one player I totally respect is Brady. I respect him because he is treated like Jeter and people act as if he isn't that great, he probably isn't as good as Peyton, but if I had to start a football team then Brady would be my first pick. All the guy does is win. I really respect that.
FWIW, Jeter's second in MLB in VORP, behind only Travis Hafner. Honestly, I'd vote for Jeter for MVP.
Mauer, Ortiz and Ramirez are all good choices too though.
Mauer, Ortiz and Ramirez are all good choices too though.
First of all, the A's, the Indians, the Royals and the Nationals are not in the AL East. They don't threaten my chances of getting the division title. Second, my exact words were: The little bit of edge that the Yankees have over the Sox in terms of cash flow makes the difference between winning and losing most of the time. I didn't say that the Red Sox didn't have a ridiculous pay roll. I never put the Red Sox in (to use your words) the shoes of the small market teams. Don't twist my words around. (Incidently, Damon STILL gets booed in KC, so I'm pretty sure the Royals' fan base isn't letting go of the grudge.)
I look at it this way - The Red Sox can afford to get some big names. And those big names have kept us competitive. But, at an earlier point in the negotiating process, we have to bow out and be responsible to our bottom line. Yes, there's lots of dough to spend. But, we couldn't justify, for example, running out and getting an All Star SS and sticking him on 3rd base if we really didn't even need him that much (and believe me, I remember how much glee George took in that signing). It's one thing to patch a hole in your roster, but you have to go out and get a dude who doesn't normally play the position because he's a super star? These are little areas that the Yankees have an edge. Where we can sign a great free agent for like, 3 years at say 8 million a year, the Yankees can offer an additional year at the same rate and eat the money for the last year if the player fizzles out. And, in most cases, the player is going to go for the offer with the additional year. You see the difference? It's frustrating to battle in the same division with a team that always has just a little bit more. I don't think I was insulting anyone's intelligence.
I look at it this way - The Red Sox can afford to get some big names. And those big names have kept us competitive. But, at an earlier point in the negotiating process, we have to bow out and be responsible to our bottom line. Yes, there's lots of dough to spend. But, we couldn't justify, for example, running out and getting an All Star SS and sticking him on 3rd base if we really didn't even need him that much (and believe me, I remember how much glee George took in that signing). It's one thing to patch a hole in your roster, but you have to go out and get a dude who doesn't normally play the position because he's a super star? These are little areas that the Yankees have an edge. Where we can sign a great free agent for like, 3 years at say 8 million a year, the Yankees can offer an additional year at the same rate and eat the money for the last year if the player fizzles out. And, in most cases, the player is going to go for the offer with the additional year. You see the difference? It's frustrating to battle in the same division with a team that always has just a little bit more. I don't think I was insulting anyone's intelligence.
WCS Girl - Correction. George did not sign ARod, "I remember how much glee George took in that signing". You do realize the Rangers picked up a ton of money on that contract. The Yanks are paying ARod 16 million/year. Remember it was a trade for Soriano.
Yes, it was a trade. Thank you for correcting that. Still, that doesn't change my point. 16 million dollars a year to pick up SS when you really need a 3rd baseman is a lot of money to spend.
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If there's a case for any non-David Ortiz candidate using all of the pro-Jeter arguments (should go to a position player, why do only HR count, doing the little things, defense counts) then it should go to Joe Mauer. He's doing more this year from a tougher position. I think it should go to Ortiz though. The Red Sox would be below .500 without him.
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I think arguments like this are pretty much bunk, personally. You're essentially penalizing a player for having a good GM/ high payroll.
Pretty simply, the guy who had the best year is the most valuable. There's not a lot of ways around that. If you're using the "take this guy out of the equation, they're nowhere" type anecdotal argument, then you can troll for the superstar on the last place team and give it to him.
ARod was flat out better in nearly every category last year. He deserved it, even if you consider the playing field "level" with regards to their positions, which you really shouldn't.
Ortiz isn't even the MVP of his own team this year- that's Ramirez. Jeter's no great shakes with the glove, but he's absolutely in the MVP conversation. He's been the best offensive SS in MLB this year, and that counts for a lot where value's concerned. The Mauer point is a real strong one as well.
I'll be honest- Daaa makes a lot of good points regarding the payroll issues. I personally think that New York and Boston are on two different plateaus where that's concerned, but, IMO, it's borderline ridiculous for the team wth the second highest payroll in baseball to ever make an issue of it. Yes, they can do more than we can with their money.
But we're still back of DET and MIN, the latter of an absolutely microscopic payroll. They've figured it out, so we can't use it as an excuse.
Our favorite team sucks right now. The Yankees, to me, are easily the best team in baseball as of my writing this. Hurts to admit, but it's ver true.
DYW is making some strong points. Telling him he sounds like an idiot who can't spell is a great way to look like a sore loser.
If there's a case for any non-David Ortiz candidate using all of the pro-Jeter arguments (should go to a position player, why do only HR count, doing the little things, defense counts) then it should go to Joe Mauer. He's doing more this year from a tougher position. I think it should go to Ortiz though. The Red Sox would be below .500 without him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think arguments like this are pretty much bunk, personally. You're essentially penalizing a player for having a good GM/ high payroll.
Pretty simply, the guy who had the best year is the most valuable. There's not a lot of ways around that. If you're using the "take this guy out of the equation, they're nowhere" type anecdotal argument, then you can troll for the superstar on the last place team and give it to him.
ARod was flat out better in nearly every category last year. He deserved it, even if you consider the playing field "level" with regards to their positions, which you really shouldn't.
Ortiz isn't even the MVP of his own team this year- that's Ramirez. Jeter's no great shakes with the glove, but he's absolutely in the MVP conversation. He's been the best offensive SS in MLB this year, and that counts for a lot where value's concerned. The Mauer point is a real strong one as well.
I'll be honest- Daaa makes a lot of good points regarding the payroll issues. I personally think that New York and Boston are on two different plateaus where that's concerned, but, IMO, it's borderline ridiculous for the team wth the second highest payroll in baseball to ever make an issue of it. Yes, they can do more than we can with their money.
But we're still back of DET and MIN, the latter of an absolutely microscopic payroll. They've figured it out, so we can't use it as an excuse.
Our favorite team sucks right now. The Yankees, to me, are easily the best team in baseball as of my writing this. Hurts to admit, but it's ver true.
DYW is making some strong points. Telling him he sounds like an idiot who can't spell is a great way to look like a sore loser.
******
Ortiz isn't even the MVP of his own team this year- that's Ramirez. Jeter's no great shakes with the glove, but he's absolutely in the MVP conversation. He's been the best offensive SS in MLB this year, and that counts for a lot where value's concerned. The Mauer point is a real strong one as well.
******
Usually I agree with BS Memorial. This time I don't.
Let's look at this point by point - why exactly is Jeter in the MVP conversation? I haven't seen any good argument for this. He's got an .882 OPS - which is barely good enough for third best on his team - I'm not counting Abreu, and Damon is almost tied with Jeter for third. If we're arguing offensive contribution, clear and away, the Yankee we're talking about is Giambi.
Second, no, he is not even the best offensive SS in his own league - Miguel Tejada is. He trumps Jeter in every category. Carlos Guillen has a better OPS than Jeter, and I think you could even make a case that Jose Reyes is better offensively this year.
The thing that really burns me up about this is that this happened before, when Phil Rizzuto won the MVP over Williams on stats that look like Jeter's. History might repeat itself - Rizzuto did intangible things and played for NY. The 1950 MVP voting is widely regarded as one of the least deserved MVP awards ever given out.
Ortiz isn't even the MVP of his own team this year- that's Ramirez. Jeter's no great shakes with the glove, but he's absolutely in the MVP conversation. He's been the best offensive SS in MLB this year, and that counts for a lot where value's concerned. The Mauer point is a real strong one as well.
******
Usually I agree with BS Memorial. This time I don't.
Let's look at this point by point - why exactly is Jeter in the MVP conversation? I haven't seen any good argument for this. He's got an .882 OPS - which is barely good enough for third best on his team - I'm not counting Abreu, and Damon is almost tied with Jeter for third. If we're arguing offensive contribution, clear and away, the Yankee we're talking about is Giambi.
Second, no, he is not even the best offensive SS in his own league - Miguel Tejada is. He trumps Jeter in every category. Carlos Guillen has a better OPS than Jeter, and I think you could even make a case that Jose Reyes is better offensively this year.
The thing that really burns me up about this is that this happened before, when Phil Rizzuto won the MVP over Williams on stats that look like Jeter's. History might repeat itself - Rizzuto did intangible things and played for NY. The 1950 MVP voting is widely regarded as one of the least deserved MVP awards ever given out.
But we're still back of DET and MIN, the latter of an absolutely microscopic payroll. They've figured it out, so we can't use it as an excuse.
True enough, BSM, but neither of these 2 teams are blocking our way to the playoffs. I don't think it's the only thing holding the Red Sox back, certainly not. But I do believe that the Sox have to say, "we can't justify spending more than a guy is worth," whereas they don't. How many times does "sorry, the guy's great but not worth x" come up in the offseason? I just don't think that the Yankees worry much about whether or not a player is going to decline if they add another year to an offer. They don't seem to care about whether or not their farm system is going to dry up. They work in the present tense, year after year. I want to think that this will eventually be their downfall, but has it really had much of a negative impact? Oh, Sheffield's down, huh? I guess we'll just go out and get Bobby Abreu, then." I'm not saying it's the right way to operate, but it obviously gets results for them.
To your earlier point re: the Tigers and the Twins. I don't think you can "figure it out" on a consistent basis. You can't have the right combination of both luck and good decision making every year. It's impossible to maintain over time without a lot of cash.
I agree that the Red Sox have plenty of money to spend. They also have a ton of brain power, so why are we so flawed?
True enough, BSM, but neither of these 2 teams are blocking our way to the playoffs. I don't think it's the only thing holding the Red Sox back, certainly not. But I do believe that the Sox have to say, "we can't justify spending more than a guy is worth," whereas they don't. How many times does "sorry, the guy's great but not worth x" come up in the offseason? I just don't think that the Yankees worry much about whether or not a player is going to decline if they add another year to an offer. They don't seem to care about whether or not their farm system is going to dry up. They work in the present tense, year after year. I want to think that this will eventually be their downfall, but has it really had much of a negative impact? Oh, Sheffield's down, huh? I guess we'll just go out and get Bobby Abreu, then." I'm not saying it's the right way to operate, but it obviously gets results for them.
To your earlier point re: the Tigers and the Twins. I don't think you can "figure it out" on a consistent basis. You can't have the right combination of both luck and good decision making every year. It's impossible to maintain over time without a lot of cash.
I agree that the Red Sox have plenty of money to spend. They also have a ton of brain power, so why are we so flawed?
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Let's look at this point by point - why exactly is Jeter in the MVP conversation?
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Jeter's in the conversation because he is 9th in MLB in VORP playing SS everyday with 411 obp. I've been away for over a week, so I hadn't noticed that he'd slumped recently and dipped in the VORP ratings- he's now .3 behind Tejada, as the second best offensive SS in baseball, when making the necessary park, league adjustments. This dip certainly hurts his MVP consideration, and as a result means I'd likely not vote for him over, say, Mauer, who comes in just behind him VORP-wise and plays better defense at an equally crucial position.
He's in the consideration because he gives a ton of offensive value at a premium position. His poor defense mitigates this, but it's hard to argue that Jeter hasn't been one of the ten best players in the AL this year.
FWIW, Jeter's EqA is .313 to Tejada's .310, and Tejada has the slight WARP edge, 6.8 to 6.2. Carlos Guillen's having a great year as well. He should be in the conversation. I don't know what kind of argument could put Reyes ahead of Jeter, however.
Re: 1950- Williams only played 89 games in 1950, and Rizzuto- with an 11.4 WARP3, probably deserved it, with the possible exception of Yogi Berra. Rizzuto was excellent in 1950.
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I just don't think that the Yankees worry much about whether or not a player is going to decline if they add another year to an offer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They absolutely don't. I mentioned that I consider the Yankees to be on another level than the Red Sox- they absolutely have an advantage.
But following that, we also have an immense advantage where that's concerned over nearly every other team in baseball. Yes, NYY being able to spend at will hurts our chances. It's just my opinion that using that as a defense is weak- would you sympathize with Boston's situation if you were, say, an Indians fan? I wouldn't.
It's actually a perfect situation when you think about it- the gargantuan advantage of these two teams held in check by one another.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
To your earlier point re: the Tigers and the Twins. I don't think you can "figure it out" on a consistent basis. You can't have the right combination of both luck and good decision making every year. It's impossible to maintain over time without a lot of cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree 100%. Trust me- the clear delineation in decision making processes based on cash availability between Us and Them frustrates the shit out of me.
That being said, it's a simple delineation, and guarantees nothing- we have the resources to put together a 95+ win team every single year. When it doesn't work out, it's probably not because They have more cash, it's more likely to be what you're describing here- a wrinkle in effectiveness based on some bad luck and a bad decision or two.
The slight difference is that almost without a doubt, it would take a huge amount of bad luck for NYY not to make the postseason in some way. This is something the FO and the fans should accept and try to plan around, IMO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree that the Red Sox have plenty of money to spend. They also have a ton of brain power, so why are we so flawed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The irrational answer that I screamed at the TV this weekend? That these guys all suck and Theo should be fitted for an adult bib based on what he did in the offseason.
My reaction after thinking more about it? You had it right before- it's just not going to happen every year. The "keeping the kids" plan may not work out in the long run, but it's not without it's merit, and it requires a bit of overlap here where certain things needed to go right for us to succeed. They very obviously haven't.
What I hope has happened is that Epstein has identified BOS's inability to simply outspend NYY. So, in lieu of that, building up cheap controlled talent around some big priced players helps you longer term, and hurts us short term, where we're forced into short term fixes that don't always work.
There are flaws to that plan I think, but I think they're going about executing it fairly intelligently.
Let's look at this point by point - why exactly is Jeter in the MVP conversation?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jeter's in the conversation because he is 9th in MLB in VORP playing SS everyday with 411 obp. I've been away for over a week, so I hadn't noticed that he'd slumped recently and dipped in the VORP ratings- he's now .3 behind Tejada, as the second best offensive SS in baseball, when making the necessary park, league adjustments. This dip certainly hurts his MVP consideration, and as a result means I'd likely not vote for him over, say, Mauer, who comes in just behind him VORP-wise and plays better defense at an equally crucial position.
He's in the consideration because he gives a ton of offensive value at a premium position. His poor defense mitigates this, but it's hard to argue that Jeter hasn't been one of the ten best players in the AL this year.
FWIW, Jeter's EqA is .313 to Tejada's .310, and Tejada has the slight WARP edge, 6.8 to 6.2. Carlos Guillen's having a great year as well. He should be in the conversation. I don't know what kind of argument could put Reyes ahead of Jeter, however.
Re: 1950- Williams only played 89 games in 1950, and Rizzuto- with an 11.4 WARP3, probably deserved it, with the possible exception of Yogi Berra. Rizzuto was excellent in 1950.
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I just don't think that the Yankees worry much about whether or not a player is going to decline if they add another year to an offer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
They absolutely don't. I mentioned that I consider the Yankees to be on another level than the Red Sox- they absolutely have an advantage.
But following that, we also have an immense advantage where that's concerned over nearly every other team in baseball. Yes, NYY being able to spend at will hurts our chances. It's just my opinion that using that as a defense is weak- would you sympathize with Boston's situation if you were, say, an Indians fan? I wouldn't.
It's actually a perfect situation when you think about it- the gargantuan advantage of these two teams held in check by one another.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
To your earlier point re: the Tigers and the Twins. I don't think you can "figure it out" on a consistent basis. You can't have the right combination of both luck and good decision making every year. It's impossible to maintain over time without a lot of cash.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree 100%. Trust me- the clear delineation in decision making processes based on cash availability between Us and Them frustrates the shit out of me.
That being said, it's a simple delineation, and guarantees nothing- we have the resources to put together a 95+ win team every single year. When it doesn't work out, it's probably not because They have more cash, it's more likely to be what you're describing here- a wrinkle in effectiveness based on some bad luck and a bad decision or two.
The slight difference is that almost without a doubt, it would take a huge amount of bad luck for NYY not to make the postseason in some way. This is something the FO and the fans should accept and try to plan around, IMO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree that the Red Sox have plenty of money to spend. They also have a ton of brain power, so why are we so flawed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The irrational answer that I screamed at the TV this weekend? That these guys all suck and Theo should be fitted for an adult bib based on what he did in the offseason.
My reaction after thinking more about it? You had it right before- it's just not going to happen every year. The "keeping the kids" plan may not work out in the long run, but it's not without it's merit, and it requires a bit of overlap here where certain things needed to go right for us to succeed. They very obviously haven't.
What I hope has happened is that Epstein has identified BOS's inability to simply outspend NYY. So, in lieu of that, building up cheap controlled talent around some big priced players helps you longer term, and hurts us short term, where we're forced into short term fixes that don't always work.
There are flaws to that plan I think, but I think they're going about executing it fairly intelligently.
******
Re: 1950- Williams only played 89 games in 1950, and Rizzuto- with an 11.4 WARP3, probably deserved it, with the possible exception of Yogi Berra. Rizzuto was excellent in 1950.
******
I could write a huge post on this, but I'll save my breath except to say that there were about 20 people who deserved the MVP in 1950 more than Rizzuto. Walt Dropo, Larry Doby, Ted Williams even in his shortened season, Bobby Doerr, Goodman, Yogi Berra, either Dom or Joe Dimaggio. Giving the MVP to a guy with a fairly empty average just isn't a great idea when there are players that have contributed all-around offensively.
That's about how I feel about Jeter's candidacy. It's all based on his offense - which isn't even as valuable as a ton of other guys - not to mention guys on his own team. That he plays an important position isn't all that exciting because he doesn't play it well.
Re: 1950- Williams only played 89 games in 1950, and Rizzuto- with an 11.4 WARP3, probably deserved it, with the possible exception of Yogi Berra. Rizzuto was excellent in 1950.
******
I could write a huge post on this, but I'll save my breath except to say that there were about 20 people who deserved the MVP in 1950 more than Rizzuto. Walt Dropo, Larry Doby, Ted Williams even in his shortened season, Bobby Doerr, Goodman, Yogi Berra, either Dom or Joe Dimaggio. Giving the MVP to a guy with a fairly empty average just isn't a great idea when there are players that have contributed all-around offensively.
That's about how I feel about Jeter's candidacy. It's all based on his offense - which isn't even as valuable as a ton of other guys - not to mention guys on his own team. That he plays an important position isn't all that exciting because he doesn't play it well.
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Walt Dropo, Larry Doby, Ted Williams even in his shortened season, Bobby Doerr, Goodman, Yogi Berra, either Dom or Joe Dimaggio.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WARP3, 1950:
Phil Rizzuto- 11.4
Walt Dropo- 5.3
Ted Williams- 5.2
Bobby Doerr- 8.1
Billy Goodman- 4.6
Yogi Berra- 10.6
Dom DiMaggio- 7.8
Joe DiMaggio- 7.7
Phil Rizzuto was phenomenal in 1950. He was quite easily the most valuable player in the AL that year. Berra is the only guy even close. Suggesting Williams was nearly as valuable in 89 games is ridiculous. Rizzuto was worth more than 6 wins above him!
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That's about how I feel about Jeter's candidacy. It's all based on his offense - which isn't even as valuable as a ton of other guys - not to mention guys on his own team. That he plays an important position isn't all that exciting because he doesn't play it well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I mentioned, Jeter's play at SS mitigates his value to be sure. But considering the fact that he's at a vital position on the diamond and performs at a level that much higher than his peers (as measured by VORP) is tremendously valuable. He has easily been the best player on his team this season- though if he continues to slump, there's certainly room for this to change.
That being said, the Rizzuto comparison is bad because at least with Jeter, there are 4-5 other guys worthy of consideration. Rizzuto was- with the exception maybe of Berra- head and shoulders above the AL that year. OPS does not tell the whole story of value.
Walt Dropo, Larry Doby, Ted Williams even in his shortened season, Bobby Doerr, Goodman, Yogi Berra, either Dom or Joe Dimaggio.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WARP3, 1950:
Phil Rizzuto- 11.4
Walt Dropo- 5.3
Ted Williams- 5.2
Bobby Doerr- 8.1
Billy Goodman- 4.6
Yogi Berra- 10.6
Dom DiMaggio- 7.8
Joe DiMaggio- 7.7
Phil Rizzuto was phenomenal in 1950. He was quite easily the most valuable player in the AL that year. Berra is the only guy even close. Suggesting Williams was nearly as valuable in 89 games is ridiculous. Rizzuto was worth more than 6 wins above him!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's about how I feel about Jeter's candidacy. It's all based on his offense - which isn't even as valuable as a ton of other guys - not to mention guys on his own team. That he plays an important position isn't all that exciting because he doesn't play it well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As I mentioned, Jeter's play at SS mitigates his value to be sure. But considering the fact that he's at a vital position on the diamond and performs at a level that much higher than his peers (as measured by VORP) is tremendously valuable. He has easily been the best player on his team this season- though if he continues to slump, there's certainly room for this to change.
That being said, the Rizzuto comparison is bad because at least with Jeter, there are 4-5 other guys worthy of consideration. Rizzuto was- with the exception maybe of Berra- head and shoulders above the AL that year. OPS does not tell the whole story of value.
What about the 1942 race, where Ted lost to Joe Gordon, despite beating him in almost every category?
Or all the other times Ted got beat out? Like 1941, when hitting over .400 wasn't good enough.
Or all the other times Ted got beat out? Like 1941, when hitting over .400 wasn't good enough.
Ted had a few years that were totally legit gripes largely related to the press hating him. Total horsecrap. Ted was at least 3 wins better than Gordon in 1942. DiMaggio was neck and neck with him in '41 though- remember, that was the year of the 56 game streak. Even Ted stated he thought DiMaggio should have gotten it. Considering how close they were, and their respective defensive play, I'm inclined to (maybe) agree. Ted's OPS does blow DiMaggio's away, however. That year's a real tough call.
Ted won in '46 and '49, and certainly deserved it in '42, '54, '55, and maybe '41.
I'm not saying they get it right every year, but Rizzuto was legit in '50. A lot of that has to do with his defense at SS which, to put it mildly, was astounding. He was 50 FRAR, and 18 FRAA.
Ted won in '46 and '49, and certainly deserved it in '42, '54, '55, and maybe '41.
I'm not saying they get it right every year, but Rizzuto was legit in '50. A lot of that has to do with his defense at SS which, to put it mildly, was astounding. He was 50 FRAR, and 18 FRAA.
I just don't buy it. I don't know what the VORPs are, but just looking at the numbers, I'm guessing there is a pretty wide gap between the VORPs of the guys I mentioned and Rizzuto.
BP doesn't list VORP calculations pre-1960. But considering how far above his peers he hit as a SS, and considering he was worth so many more runs over replacement than your referenced competition, I'd actually be surprised if he wasn't in the top 3 VORP-wise.
Absent that though, the WARP tallies are pretty convincing. As was his defense.
Bill James in his Abstract-
"...deserved the AL Gold GLove in 1941, 1942, 1946 and 1950 and did deserve the MVP award he won in 1950."
Absent that though, the WARP tallies are pretty convincing. As was his defense.
Bill James in his Abstract-
"...deserved the AL Gold GLove in 1941, 1942, 1946 and 1950 and did deserve the MVP award he won in 1950."
Also from the Abstract-
"By the end of [1949] sportswriters were once more arguing that Rizzuto was the best shortstop in baseball. In 1950 he was the best player in baseball, at any position."
"By the end of [1949] sportswriters were once more arguing that Rizzuto was the best shortstop in baseball. In 1950 he was the best player in baseball, at any position."
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